Lambda the Ultimate

Jobs
started 4/1/2001; 3:45:41 AM - last post 4/5/2001; 4:44:07 AM

4/1/2001; 3:45:41 AM (reads: 1279, responses: 11)

Jobs

I'd really like to hear people's views on jobs using non-mainstream programming languages (to post, click on the Discuss link below):

How do people find jobs? Sites? Advice? Success stories?
How could this site help? A listing of jobs? Of available people?
What languages are in demand?
Give the (apparently) small market, is home-working common? Or do jobs cluster around certain geographic areas?
What level of skill is required? Is general experience and an interest in that language sufficient, or do you need to be an expert?

I'm concentrating on software engineering rather than academia because I presume that academics know who works where and how to apply, but I may be wrong - if so, please correct me.

"Non-mainstream" is vague, and perhaps misleading. There's no hard rules - I don't expect people to mention C++, but Lisp is fine...

Sorry that there's no link, but in an ironic twist I searched Google for "software engineer job Lisp OCaml" to see what was out there and the first item I found was my own CV...!
Posted to Software-Eng by andrew cooke on 4/1/01; 3:56:02 AM

andrew cooke - Re: Jobs

4/1/2001; 8:40:48 AM (reads: 1279, responses: 0)

There is an area for Haskell jobs here (one position).

David Thompson - Re: Jobs

4/1/2001; 12:54:49 PM (reads: 1268, responses: 1)

So far as I am able to establish there is no market whatever for skills in “non-mainstream” languages in the UK. Well, other than marginal scratching for lisp and smalltalk – which aren’t really that far out. (BTW, if anyone could offer me post using either in Tyne & Wear I would work for much less than the £45ph I get for C++ on windows :).

I do not believe there is any market whatever in using Scheme, ML, Haskell, APL, J, Miranda, Prolog, erlang … you name it. The real world is DOMINATED by Visual Basic, C++ (but only Visual C++) perl, RPG, COBOL, SQL and HTML. Nothing else has any commercial value. Desperately, terribly sad.

David Thompson - Re: Jobs

4/1/2001; 12:55:31 PM (reads: 1276, responses: 0)

andrew cooke - Re: Jobs

4/1/2001; 1:42:09 PM (reads: 1347, responses: 0)

So far as I am able to establish there is no market whatever for skills in “non-mainstream” languages in the UK

I've just tried searching here (selecting all areas) and found a few Lisp and ML jobs (no Haskell, OCaml, Erlang or Prolog), if that's any help...

Ehud Lamm - Re: Jobs

4/2/2001; 9:43:19 AM (reads: 1260, responses: 1)

I think things are even worse than it appears. I heard from a couple of people that they worked in C++ shops and project leaders were ignorant of things like templates...

<flame>Even though people here are language lovers (I guess), we must remember that usually language is just one detail in over system architecture, and a minor detail at that. </flame>

andrew cooke - Re: Jobs

4/2/2001; 10:00:19 AM (reads: 1291, responses: 0)

I can't say I'm surprised about the lack of C++ expertise, but would you expect an OCaml shop to be unaware of, say, functors or higher order functions? If the answer is no (and I think it is!) then choosing to work for somewhere that uses a "non-mainstream" language is likely to automatically select a better environment...

Ehud Lamm - Re: Jobs

4/2/2001; 11:33:47 AM (reads: 1286, responses: 0)

then choosing to work for somewhere that uses a "non-mainstream" language is likely to automatically select a better environment

If you can only find such a place... Which brings us back to square one.

Chris Rathman - Re: Jobs

4/2/2001; 5:16:05 PM (reads: 1245, responses: 0)

The problem is that your looking for a job with a specific language requirement. My personal view is that if you want to use a non-standard language for productivity reasons, then you should look for jobs where they are not looking for a language expert. Rather you should look for jobs where the requirement is to get the job done choosing whatever means necessary.

The downside is that you usually have to get in on those types of projects prior to them be successful. You have to have a certain risk taking spirit since the projects are unprove, large, and require a vast amount of effort.

Anyhow, if you manage to get in on the ground floor of projects, you are usually given a wider degree of latitude in the types of tools you use. If you wait around for projects that are in refinement or maintenance mode, then the obvious language requirements are determined by the original choices.

Ehud Lamm - Re: Jobs

4/4/2001; 2:22:29 AM (reads: 1225, responses: 0)

you should look for jobs where the requirement is to get the job done choosing whatever means necessary.

'trying to change the system from within'... (Leonard Cohen)

I agree. As I said one should realy distinguish between the language and the overal software projects. Usually a project has some tangible goals, the clients can grasp. Programming language chioces are second-order.

I think that when you check in house software created by large corportations you'll find a great variety of languages. Why? Because the programming teams (IT departments) are there, and when they are assigned a task the usual requirement is to solve the problem (and fast!). It gives quite a lot of influence to the software gurus.

On the other hand, software companies usualy have policies and attituides that are realy hard to overcome.

BTW: As an example notice that APL has had a great success in the insurance industry.

andrew cooke - Re: Jobs

4/5/2001; 4:44:07 AM (reads: 1240, responses: 0)

Computists International have a newsletter with jobs that, because they tend to be connected with CS/AI, use a variety of languages. (In general these newsletters are quite informative, if a bit quirky at times).