Lambda the Ultimate

inactiveTopic Ward Cunningham: Testing, Types, and More
started 2/13/2003; 3:57:19 PM - last post 3/4/2003; 10:10:27 AM
Patrick Logan - Ward Cunningham: Testing, Types, and More  blueArrow
2/13/2003; 3:57:19 PM (reads: 674, responses: 10)
Jon Udell conducts a fine interview with Ward Cunningham, a key figure of Extreme Programming, patterns, Smalltalk, etc. (e.g. people may not widely realize that Smalltalk very well might not have gotton out of the Xerox PARC labs and into widespread use without Ward Cunningham's influence at Tektronix.)

Manuel Simoni - Re: Ward Cunningham: Testing, Types, and More  blueArrow
2/13/2003; 11:02:43 PM (reads: 679, responses: 0)
Ward Cunningham's new testing framework might be of interest: http://fit.c2.com. (One of the web's most subtle hypertext artists strikes again, btw.)

Ehud Lamm - Re: Ward Cunningham: Testing, Types, and More  blueArrow
2/16/2003; 4:44:37 AM (reads: 608, responses: 0)
From a PL point of view it is interesting to consider the transition of many ideas and techniques from the Smalltalk world to Java. The languages, though both OOP "everything's an object" lnaguages, are quite different after all.

Isaac Gouy - Re: Ward Cunningham: Testing, Types, and More  blueArrow
2/16/2003; 8:35:04 AM (reads: 611, responses: 0)
it is interesting to consider the transition of many ideas and techniques from the Smalltalk world to Java
I suppose it's interesting from the outside ;-)
The people moved - Java was a nicely hyped, profitable market.

From a different perspective it was more like the slow re-invention of the wheel, again and again and again... "Write Once, Run Anywhere" both VW ST and IBM ST were doing that when Java re-invented it. Parcplace ST used what in Java became AWT/Swing; IBM ST used what in Java became SWT.
Gosh, that was progress ;-)

both OOP "everything's an object" languages
Aye, there's the rub!
In Java "everything's an object" except when it's an incompatible "primitive data type", things that are hardly ever useful like numbers and characters.
Is that where the hype started?

Patrick Logan - Re: Ward Cunningham: Testing, Types, and More  blueArrow
2/16/2003; 6:55:29 PM (reads: 618, responses: 1)
"Write Once, Run Anywhere" both VW ST and IBM ST were doing that when Java re-invented it. Parcplace ST used what in Java became AWT/Swing; IBM ST used what in Java became SWT. Gosh, that was progress ;-)

ParcPlace's GUI is much better than Swing, though.

Also, reliable sources say Sun tried to make a deal with ParcPlace to license their Smalltalk for use in devices. When that fell through (PP wanted $$, not understanding the concept of volume licenses apparently), Oak was invented, now known as Java.

Sigh. They still could have implemented a Smalltalk dialect more easily than Java.

Isaac Gouy - Re: Ward Cunningham: Testing, Types, and More  blueArrow
2/17/2003; 8:51:28 AM (reads: 634, responses: 0)
the transition of many ideas and techniques from the Smalltalk world to Java
sometimes indirectly via other innovative languages

much better than Swing
I was tempted to say ST "Write Once, Run Anywhere" that actually works ;-)
I was also tempted to say that emulating platform widgets means you have taken on the burden of re-writing the emulation everytime the platform vendor comes out with a new look&feel. Yes, end-users notice immediately :-(

Sigh
Sigh. Part of the canonical answer to "Why isn't Smalltalk more widely used?" is past business mismanagement not technical inadequacy. Part of the answer is that technical innovations never made it from prototype to product because of that. Part must be technical inadequacies that have not yet been addressed, or have only recently been addressed - interfaces, traits... Part must be that Smalltalk uses [ ] instead of { }

a Smalltalk dialect
Well they did have the Self 4.0 Smalltalk system...

Isaac Gouy - Re: Ward Cunningham: Testing, Types, and More  blueArrow
3/1/2003; 5:36:47 PM (reads: 555, responses: 1)
the transition of many ideas and techniques from the Smalltalk world to Java
For language historians, more about Swing/SWT & PPST/IBM ST

Although some details may be incorrect, the gist of the story seems to be supported - see Basic facts of this story and Sun vs. IBM and the origins of Swing

Ehud Lamm - Re: Ward Cunningham: Testing, Types, and More  blueArrow
3/3/2003; 2:19:52 PM (reads: 581, responses: 0)
Interesting link. Thanks!

Isaac Gouy - Re: Ward Cunningham: Testing, Types, and More  blueArrow
3/3/2003; 3:04:04 PM (reads: 544, responses: 1)
Some details may be incorrect.

Ehud Lamm - Re: Ward Cunningham: Testing, Types, and More  blueArrow
3/4/2003; 12:50:19 AM (reads: 571, responses: 0)
I just said it was interesting, not that it's correct

Isaac Gouy - Re: Ward Cunningham: Testing, Types, and More  blueArrow
3/4/2003; 10:10:27 AM (reads: 536, responses: 0)
The new links give some support for the story, and question some of the details.