Lambda the Ultimate

I agree that Java is a terrible first language, but I think VB is even worse. It is not even a language, it is a Microsoft product...

The choice of texts and instructors can also make a large difference. A bad instructor can ruin a good language, and a good instructor can render a difficult language easy to understand. Often I've found that when students react negatively to a language or to programming in general, what is really at fault is the instructor or one particular textbook.

Also, the programming environment is important. CMU had an editing system for its beginning students which ensured that the input was syntactically correct Pascal. This proved to be a great help for the students, as it enabled them to think less about syntax and more about the actual programming task at hand.

Overall, I can't point to one particular language. I can say not to use Fortran77. That was my first language, and it scarred me for life :-) I think that a good first language should be imperative, because in my experience students have an easier time with telling something what to do. It can help if the language is interpreted, because of the instantaneous feedback, but a compiled language with an easy to use IDE can be just as good. The important thing is having a simple, consistent syntax, (this rules Perl and C++ out...) so that the student can easily understand the meaning of an example, and isn't encumbered by quirky rules when trying to write their own programs. I'm not sure of the benefits of static typing, because I found that (at least with beginning students writing small programs) type declarations and the concept of typing are pretty alien, and in many cases I saw programs that were semantically correct, but would not compile because a student had forgotten a declaration. I'm sure others disagree with me on that...

Overall, I'd say for the average student learning to program, Python is a good choice, as its syntax is simple, it's interpreted, there are good texts for learning it, and it doesn't use static typing.

As far as Basic goes, didn't Dijkstra mention something about it ruining programmers ?

If they want performance, they can learn C to be close to the metal; If they want OO, they can learn Smalltalk which is not too far; If they want FP and correct static typing, they can study Haskell.

Python has been influenced by multiple paradigms. So although it forces you to use indentation, it's very open-minded otherwise. I've even seen multi-methods modeled in Python.

I really think there is a place for teaching Scheme as a first language, but also for teaching Pascal. Some schools offer parallel tracks.

As for language choice i only know which not to use: Java, C++, Basic, and Concurrent Clean (and of course Intercal or BF). The language chosen to teach depends on too many factors and after all it's the ideas that count (most of which are similar if not the same)! It really doesn't matter which language you chose (apart from those mentioned).

With I must agree. I also think most of the points you raise are valid.

I think much of the confusion comes from the fact the CS educators argue which language is best for budding computer scientists. This, of course, is an entirely different question.

Seeing as it was designed to be a teaching language, and was a traditional first language for a long period of time (and quite a few places still use it), I am inclined to say why not?!

Is this some kind of troll?

When you teach yourself a language outside of the classroom, ease of setup, use, instant gratification and support are the primary concerns. OTOH, teaching a first language should be geared towards imparting fundamental concepts with a the minimal amount of sidetracking into syntactical trivia.

IMO, Python is the best language to learn if you are trying to learn it on your own. From a teaching standpoint, I'd probably slant towards Scheme. However, more important than the particular language being taught is the specific concepts you are aiming to teach within the given time frame. The language used should be a function of these principles rather than vice-versa.

Since these projects spring from a vacuum, this means libraries and interfaces to other systems (C libraries, GUI, networking, etc.) rank right up there with decent tutorials. User community is important too. If people can ask questions and get real answers without being made to feel stupid, that counts for a lot.

I suspect that this sort of motivation would work for educators, too. Students in school might like to learn to program by making simple GUIs, doing database work, etc. like they know they're going to be doing in the 'real world', rather than writing console-based calculators (for instance). There's ample room for an instructor to teach fundamentals and good habits there, and I think most students would find it more engaging.

One should, however, be careful to avoid languages that may ruin the way new programmers think. VB may be a good example of this. Alas, it seems Java often has this eefect too.

That's a good reason to questoin things. I just didn't think about this obvious reason for your question...

I am not going to advocate Pascal, since it is an old language with some problems. But it good points are also quite important, and realatively well known. It is strongly type (though the type system isn't up to modern standards). Type quivalence is by-name. The language is procedural and support structured programming (true strucutred programming: unlike C you can nest routines etc.).

The language is pretty restricted which is a Good Thing, for teaching purposes. Yuo don't have to master huge libraries to use the language. You don't need tostart right off with complicated concepts (IMHO) like OOP/inheritance.

The syntax is readable (though Ada has some improvements). For example you can explicitly state the parameter passing style. Youd don't use pointers explicitly like in some other languages.

Notice that all these factors can be seen as making Pascal a 'Toy Language'. You may enjoy reading this classic attack.

I feel that I'm short on the math skills, but that hasn't really come up in the little programs I've written in Python. I read articles on AI and other stuff and I end up seeing complex mathmatical expressions to explain different problems, though when I peek over the engineers shoulders, I see that they mainly rely on the large amounts of gadgets stored in various libraries.

So in your opinions, is it really the Language or is it the ability to understand and solve a problem and from there decide on which language is the best tool for the job?