Lambda the Ultimate

Many references to previous work are give here.

...what really annoys me is when i see Haskell described as an "advanced scripting language". It makes it look -- to the masses -- like another toyish slow performant dynamic web-page generator absolutely inadequate for systems programming and "real" software development...

this coming from papa... :P

I couldn't disagree more. .NET is a significant platform, and the post is (I presume) interesting to those doing language research that might be target it.

I've found Erik's posts to be informative and thought-provoking in the past, and I hope he continues in the same manner.

I haven't done any .NET work myself, but I certainly don't mind reading about it -- Martin Odersky just referred readers of the Scala list to Kennedy and Syme's paper about implementing runtime type information with generics on .NET. If not LtU, then where?

LtU news items come from a group of members called "contributing editors". From time to time we also invite prominent figures to act as guest bloggers on LtU. These are people we think provide an interesting perspective and add to our community. They are encouraged to discuss their own work, natrually.

Erik was invited to guest blog here, and I find his contributions to be informative and welcome. The post in question is indeed a bit too long for our standards, but overall I don't think it merits your outrage, and it is more than compensated by other posts from Erik.

Let's try to be more cordial to our guests. Thanks.

I don't want to run a policital debate but I've been following LtU for some time now and I think - Eric or not , Microsoft or not - that call for participations are too much particular to be in the LtU news. The forum is the good place for this kind of things, and having some calls-for-participation being highlighted because of the "contributing editor" status of the author makes me feel uneasy.

Also, an other recent post by the same author, I would say that the title Functional Programming Has Reached The Masses; It's Called Visual Basic might be seen as either ironic or provocative by some people of the community. Using such title might be seen as trying to run a marketing campaign for some papers, which is again different from what IMHO should be expected from LtU contributors.

Ehud, I want to apologize to you if the furor following my post made LtU in any way less pleasant for you to be a part of. LtU matters to me, your effort matters, and I appreciate it and I hope you continue to enjoy it. :)

I'm sorry.

I'm glad you mentioned this: I too have been uneasy with some of Meijer's posts to LtU. AFAIK he is no longer an academic and is working for Microsoft (and probably more than fulltime!-) Now that he is no longer at Utrecht University and is fully invested in Microsoft there may be little/no non-Microsoft research to balance his Microsoft work; thus the apparent unbridled pro-Microsoft flavor of his posts.

Some of my discomfort is that, in this instance, LtU was used as a forum for an announcement of what appears to be a Microsoft-specific event rather than the discussion of an idea.

Just my 2 cents' worth.

"Microsoft has done--is doing--a lot of really amazing, innovative work in PLs"

I don't think so: they just hired some of the best minds which were already deep into interesting research, including Erik himself, to bring them to the masses. As Erik likes to say, M$ is giving functional languages to the masses in the form of VB, rather than Lisp or the scripting language haskell...

Ehud, i don't think Erik minds some criticism. In his own words: "I exhibit 'A lack of sensitivity to the feelings and ways of those who might need reassurance, security or commitment'".

As Erik likes to say, M$ is giving functional

Is that like Open $ores?

yep. except for the money. :)

Let me guess. If this was an open source event then it wouldn't be hype?

I'm not anti-Microsoft.

Or maybe it's just undisguised.

I really do dislike spam, and I hope LtU will ask its contributors to cut back.

And those of that would rather stick with the technical issues and not make a religion out of software would rather not be spammed either.

There's an aspect here that has nothing to do with religion or which company this post happens to relate to. If you look back through the archives, I don't think you'll find any other front page posts quite like this one. For example, here's the announcement of LL2. That's a better model to follow: a short summary with a link to a more detailed page elsewhere. People who are interested can, as they say, RTFA. People who are not interested, don't have to deal with a full-blown commercial announcement while they're reading LtU.

Anton, you should know better. Who cares if Microsoft is sponsoring the conference. Would it suit your fancy if Dick Stallman did? You're just showing your true colors like the rest of these people. Are you saying it can't be tech?

Ehud, didn't we have a site discussion about anti-microsoft slime before?

("True colors"). For the record, I would have the same issue with any similar announcement from any person or organization. As I pointed out, if you look through the archives, I don't think you'll find any similar announcements. My "true colors" here have to do with avoiding commercials, avoiding bad precedents, and appropriate use of the LtU format.

What we're suffering from here is partly a lack of explicit policy. We'll correct that.

My "true colors" here have to do with avoiding commercials, avoiding bad precedents, and appropriate use of the LtU format... What we're suffering from here is partly a lack of explicit policy. We'll correct that.

I agree with Anton. I just think that this transgression wasn't of such magnitude to merit such a long and aggressive thread. I think (and hope) Anton will agree with this analysis.

Notice that it is possible to reach mutual understanding and agreement about how to handle such things without getting into a holy war. That's the LtU way.

P.S.

If this thread didn't start, I'd have sent a polite mail to Erik suggesting he edit the post and shorten it. I think that would have been the appropriate and proportional response.

I just think that this transgression wasn't of such magnitude to merit such a long and aggressive thread. I think (and hope) Anton will agree with this analysis.

Yes, absolutely, and I hope Erik isn't taking this too personally (I was encouraged by the quote on his homepage about his "lack of sensitivity". I think we need more of that. :)

If this thread didn't start, I'd have sent a polite mail to Erik suggesting he edit the post and shorten it. I think that would have been the appropriate and proportional response.

Again, I agree.

Ehud also reminded me offline that LtU does have some policies in addition to the FAQ. That list still omits a number of unwritten policies, but I think we'll try to write some of those down in the near future.

...and being the unofficial LtU archivist.... The other time we've had a longish post of this nature was a conference announcement from Wadler. Making a cut-and-dried policy of the content type and format is probably not going to yield a workable solution - discretion being the better part of valor. Best we could do is make suggestions.

Personally, all the CFPs I see and various conference announcements always perturb me, because it reminds me that I live the sheltered cave life of a programmer. I don't get to go to these types of events, and I don't see why others should enjoy themselves in my absence. :-)

just, like, yes!

Let me guess. If this was an open source event then it wouldn't be hype?

If Richard Stallman were a guest contributor, and he chose to post two full pages of promotional material for GuileCon 2006 (or whatever), I would be just as annoyed. Probably more so.

And those of that would rather stick with the technical issues and not make a religion out of software would rather not be spammed either.

I too prefer to stick to the technical issues; that's sort of what I was saying.

I'm not sure what I said that may have struck you as religious. Perhaps using "Microsoft" and "hype" set off your dogma sensor? I think in that case it's a bit too finely tuned.

Ehud, it's just anti-microsoft a**holes. We all know there are plenty of smart people that are going to be at the conference and it's open to all.

Are you going to subcumb to the open source jihadists?

I'm speechless. :) That's really offensive, and ludicrous.

You're not alone. Some of Erik's posts gave me an uneasy feeling in the past - he seems to be avoiding technical issues, and mostly just promoting LINQ and the like. But this post is the worst yet.

Ehud, it's just anti-microsoft a**holes. We all know there are plenty of smart people that are going to be at the conference and it's open to all.

Are you going to subcumb to the open source jihadists?

I was always against posting long announcements. I am sure my post about this (unrelated to MS) can be found somewhere in the archives...

BTW, let's tone down the language (on both sides), ok? I really don't think it is helpful.

I don't think you get the point: LtU is "The Programming Languages Weblog". You don't see posts here touting the latest GCC release or about the CPython or Jython implementations in particular: the focus is on discussions on the technical aspects of languages, language research and related stuff.

This one however is just a long post for a conference for a particular implementation from the tech giant many IT heads love to hate. It's not technical and it's rather long and that's afaik why people resented it...

It's not a compiler release. And when Python 3k is released we'll rejoice and hail...or something.

YOU are part of the problem RMALFIA. Ehud has already stated enough of your anti-MS trolling.

And no Ehud, I won't tone it down. These are good people talking about programming languages.

I'm going to rip on rmalfia and every other "person"(i'm being nice) that spews their disgusting politics.

Then you're a bigger part of the problem than they are.

I personally don't have a problem with Eric's posts, though I wish he would have shortened it a bit and summarized it a bit better. Even with the longish post (by front page standards), I didn't really get an idea of what the purpose of the conference was. But then maybe the conference isn't really focused? (The other problem I have with Eric is that he's not been particular engaging in terms of the discussions of his storylines - but that's a different issue entirely).

Anyhow, the real problem with LtU at the moment is not the MS or anti-MS slant. Rather, it's a lack of stories being posted. If you don't like Eric's story, then by all means become an editor to LtU and post stories you think are likely to be of interest for us PL theorists, professionals, and hobbyists. Contrary to popular opinion, LtU really has no mindset for or against any particular PLs or paradigms. What it has is some editors that come from different backgrounds, that happen to post stories that are of particular interest to themselves. And then it has a larger community that likes to discuss these things. In the end, LtU is what we make of it as individul contributors.

(Note: the "you" in the above is not aimed at Dave in particular - I just found his post to be a convenient place to post my own particular rant). :-)

Rather, it's a lack of stories being posted. If you don't like Eric's story, then by all means become an editor to LtU and post stories you think are likely to be of interest for us PL theorists, professionals, and hobbyists.

I was going to mention this myself, after things cooled a bit...

David, you can be as adamant as you want, but I think your message will be better served if argued for politely.

As I said repeatedly in the past, and even a few times in the current thread, LtU is neutral as regards such "political" questions. It's the "science" that we are into.

This is also why I think this thread should start focusing on techincal issues (related to PLs :-) or end.

"It's not a compiler release."

In case you didn't notice, it was just an example of open-source projects which receive as much attention here as MS tools. Which is: not much.

People talk about python the language, but also C#...

"YOU are part of the problem RMALFIA."

"Ehud has already stated enough of your anti-MS trolling."

I don't know what you're talking about. I'm just rather resentful with some of Erik's posts, or rather the provocative way he puts it. I also stated that MS has hired lots of brilliant minds, is that trolling or just stating a well known fact?

I don't troll about MS and don't do much open-source advocacy here...

"rmalfia"

well, at least spell Malafaia correctly, ok?

Anyway, i'm dropping off now since this is useless...

Personally I like seeing conference announcements at LtU, even though I have yet to attend any. I don't know which mailing lists one would have to join to get the same sort of diversity in postings, and it would be nice to have them available in one place.

Perhaps an upcoming events forum would be a good place to put these. A corresponding sidebar entry could be added to list off the 5 most recent, or most active.

On the other hand, many people seem to be complaining about the length of the announcement. If there was a way to write a short intro to a post with a Read More link to view the full content, that would remove the burden of drafting, uploading, and linking to a separate HTML page. I don't know whether Drupal currently has this capability.

The easiest way to do this is simply post a summary in the story that is posted to the front page. And then respond to yourself with a forum message that has all the details. Of course, if you want a link to the details in the original story, you have to create both items first, and then re-edit the story to point to the response that contains the details.

There are lots of mailing lists that are used mainly for announcements of these sorts, and are much better suited for them than LtU. I suggest subscribing to some, if you are interested in conference announcements.

Maybe we should start a thread to collect useful links to mailing lists of this sort.

If there was a way to write a short intro to a post with a Read More link to view the full content, that would remove the burden of drafting, uploading, and linking to a separate HTML page. I don't know whether Drupal currently has this capability.

Drupal can do that, but we don't want it for this sort of thing. Conferences almost always have their own web sites, and all that's necessary is to post a summary and a link to that site. LtU is not intended as hosting space for conference web pages.

...could one of you good people please direct me to Lambda the Ultimate? I seem to have wandered into Slashdot by mistake.

Continuing old threads is usually the norm around here. Thanks for the link!